From my lips to God's ears....
http://www.jstandard.com/index.php/content/item/after-school_open_yeshiva_program_proposed_in_teaneck
Parade Or Disruption?
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In its wisdom, the township has decided to disenfranchise a large part of
the community by insisting on holding the Independence Day Parade on the
morning...
4 months ago
129 comments:
PSP: Nu, you're a believer?
What a great idea! I applaud Rabbi Zieler's forward thinking!
GREAT IDEA, STICK WITH RABBI ZIELER
HE BRINGS A NEW WAY OF THINKING FOR OUR TEANECK COMMUNITY
The reality is this:
1. The Jewish Center is largely empty because there arent all that many committed conservative Jews in Teaneck. They have been trying for years to save themselves, from the mechitza minyan to various other programs.
2. This is basically a glorified talmud torah which has already been put out of existence.
3. Are they gonna get some public school kids who want some Jewish education? Maybe. Will they get yeshiva kids to drop out of yeshiva and join this program in conjunction with public school? doubtful.
Does anyone have any idea how many orthodox families actually send this kids to public school (other than those with children with special needs)? I suspect the number is rather small, but I really don't know.
Does anyone have any idea how many orthodox families actually send this kids to public school (other than those with children with special needs)? I suspect the number is rather small, but I really don't know.
Don't know either but the number will go up tremendously after the scholarship amounts for next year are determined.
I don't think it will last in the long run but in the short run it provides an alternative to families that are not going to be able to go to Yeshiva's this year because the demand for scholarships has gone up while donations have gone down. Hopefully when things get better these children will go back to day schools.
Also, I like the idea because it will push the Yeshiva's to finally make some real cost cuts so they can compete with the low-cost alternatives.
As much as I'd like to say this is good progress, there are too many problems in my view. The good: The Teaneck Center has great accomodations for the program, it is well located in Teaneck and THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING SOMETHING.
The bad:
First, it is a program run by a conservative synagogue in a mostly Orthodox town. For the program to attract a large number of students, it must be run by an orthodox organization -- and be open to conservative or unaffiliated children.
Second, the program is only for kids in fifth through seventh grades and seems to be focused on providing "b’nai mitzvah preparation". This does not sound like a program aimed at Orthodox kids. As the article points out, Schecter lost 100 students over the last few years -- the last thing they need is this competition. Have they forgotten what happened to the Schechter High School in Teaneck?
Third, we need a program that starts in first grade and goes through at least eighth grade to provide a full complement to families who want (or need) to send their kids to public school.
Finally, the program is missing an integrated approach with the Teaneck school district and the board of education. I think that the only way to make this type of program successful is to make the integration of Orthodox students into the public school easier and more attractive to families.
The four major steps that the BOE must take include:
(1) Public school should offer 1 hour of Hebrew a day as an elective subject, starting in first grade. This would require two additional teachers at the public school (1 to teach 1-4 grades at Whittier and 1 to teach 5-8 grades at BF). Cost to the district about $100,000-$150,000, including salaries and benefits. This should meet the needs of about 160 students if there are twenty kids per grade.
(2) School district needs to make an effort to attract Orthodox families. We need a marketing push that stresses the positive aspects of public education aimed directly at Orthodox parents. The public high school already advertises its open house in the Standard, there is a need for a much bigger marketing push.
(3) The after-school classes should take place in the schools themselves to minimize travel time. This will allow public school kids to finish their religious studies at 4:00.
(4) I am going senile. I forgot my last point.
The most difficult thing will be getting an Orthodox institution to openly support the Jewish afternoon education. Also, people need to realize that the Jewish education provided by this program will not be as strong as that provided by day schools. But it should be sufficient.
And, if as a result, I will be able to afford to send my kids to college, I think it is a valuable trade off in the long run.
The big question is: Why should the school district care?
I believe that the school district would benefit from a more diversified student population. As I mentioned in a previous posting, the Teaneck school population has changed dramatically. In 1985, the school was majority white. Now, only 15% of the kids in the lower grades are white (source: GreatSchools.net) -- while local area private schools are majority white (such as St Joseph in Bogota: 62% white).
A better-integrated school district should improve the education of all our children, and better prepare them for the "real world".
CFA Guy, What about the orthodox kids who would go to Hawthorne, Lowell and TJ?
I think your ideas are good. However, I don't believe any major change will happen before the new superintendent is in place.
"This would require two additional teachers at the public school (1 to teach 1-4 grades at Whittier and 1 to teach 5-8 grades at BF)." This statement assumes that only Whittier and BF would have Orthodox students to receive this Hebrew education. I must remind CFA Guy that there has been a tremendous increase in Orthodox families moving to other parts of Teaneck south of Rt. 4 (either side of Garrison Avenue, the area either side of Queen Anne Road, and the entire Country Club area). Teaneck Public Schools are not neighborhood schools but are districted for integration and balanced class sizes. Younger children would also be attending Hawthorne and Lowell, as well as Thomas Jefferson Middle School. In addition, TPS policy is to provide comparable education at each grade level, so if you offer something in Whittier and BF, it must also be offered at an equal level in Hawthorne and Lowell and TJ. Thus, your cost estimate would need to be far higher if the Board of Education chose to implement this language offering.
What’s more – and this is just an observation -- since the Orthodox community largely demonstrated a significant lack of support for this year’s school budget (not to mention those in past years), I hardly think the Board of Education would consider it wise to ignore this “mandate” from that portion of the voting population and add this kind of cost to next year’s budget!
And before anyone starts saying “well, if there was something in it for the non-public school population, I would support the budget” – just remember that the budget contains (1) over $5 million for busing (3/4 of which goes to non-public school and special needs students), (2) money for upkeep of buildings and grounds used as well by the large community for meetings, events such as Yom Hashoah, Community Education classes, Sports & Arts, and many township recreation sports programs throughout the year, (3) state-mandated special education funding for both in district classes as well as out-of-district placements, monitored by Child Study Teams, (4) Community Education classes and programs such as subsidized costs for Camp Kokooskoos summer camp.
CFA Guy - Thanks for your thoughtful comments on this question. I don't know from the different flavors of Judaism but I certainly hope that these ideas have legs. The whole town would benefit if more residents are able to partake in the services that everyone pays for anyway. Obviously,like our partnering with Bogota on town services, the devil is in the details, but if we can find a way to make it work it will help people to save money and it might even ease community relations issues by enabling different types of people to have more positive interactions with each other.
As for the new superintendent - there is a great deal of trepidation about the town's ability to attract the best candidate for superintendent with such lukewarm support for the Board of Education. It's not a plain vanilla district by any means.
Isn't the Jewish Center transitioning to Orthodox and isn't Rabbi Zieler Orthodox?
Not only do comparable courses have to be offered in all the schools in town, but they have to be offered to everyone. If we overtly target a certain religious persuasion for these courses, it will fail the First Amendment smell test.
mskj,
I a democratic country we don't punish people for how they vote.
Laverty:
You are right. I don't expect any changes until the budget goes through and the new superintendent comes in.
With respect to Hawthorne, Lowell and TJ, my response is as follows:
If there are only 20 Orthodox kids in a class (e.g., first grade), all of those kids will have to be located in one school (I wrote Whittier, but it could be Hawthorne or Lowell). One of the reasons is related to cost (why have three Hebrew teachers in three schools to teach 7 kids in each school when you can have one teacher that can teach 20 kids in one location?).
The second reason is that he school will need to be innovative to attract Orthodox kids. If only 20 kids enter the first grade, they would all have to be in the same school (but not in the same class). I would put five kids in each of four classes. That way, each of these classes would be 25% Jewish/Orthodox. Adding 20 white kids to first grade would increase the white ratio from 15% to 22% (in my estimation).
The school would need to balance the addition of these majority white kids into one single school, probably by allocating more white non-Jewish kids to other schools in the district. That way, the racial balance would be maintained at 22% or so in all the schools.
It would be impossible to get too many (I would say any) Orthodox kids into public school if they are separated into three different schools. We (the Orthodox) live in a closed society. Kids who attend public school are ostracized and parents are embarrassed to admit that their kids go to public school -- I know; am one of them.
For me, it would be extremely important that my kid has at least 5 other Orthodox kids in his class so that he has a group of friends to have play dates on Shabbat, and with whom to have a Jewish interaction.
If the school system (which has huge difficulties attracting white kids) wants to reverse this terrible trend, it will have to make some changes to attract some Orthodox kids -- which I think/hope will move other whites to come back to the public school.
Hence, I identified four items that the school district would need to work on.
MSKJ:
The school budget was defeated for good reason. The runaway education costs in Teaneck are crazy. School costs should increase by inflation plus the growth in the student population (which is negative now).
In Teaneck, teaching has become the fastest way to get to a six-figure salary. 33% of the BOE employees make over $100K a year -- many of them working on what the state calls a 10-month salary.
It used to be that people went into education as a higher calling (i.e., to educate and have an impact on children) -- not to become wealthy.
I already had a heated argument in a previous posting, so I will try not to repeat myself.
We have a huge problem, with newer teachers making too little and tenured teachers making too much.
Example: The Teaneck school district pays $100K to a kindergarten gym teacher.
I recognize that the BOE grounds and buildings are used by the broader community, but there is a mistake if the BOE does not recognize that there are problems and overspending in the school's budget.
Esther:
I don't think it would be so difficult to find a superintendent.
The most difficult thing is that the previous superintendent had been in the district for decades and was very well liked. He/She will have big shoes to fill.
The search should be easy though because we pay close to $200,000 for the position at a time in which the unemployment rate is close to 10%.
Second, the superintendent in Teaneck would have the support of 24 or so assistants, directors, principals and supervisors that earn over $100,000. This should make his work easier.
Esther:
Well said: "The devil is in the details".
In this case, the second devil (can there be two?) is in changing the current mentality of the system.
MSJK shows the old mentality when he said: "TPS policy is to provide comparable education at each grade level, so if you offer something in Whittier and BF, it must also be offered at an equal level in Hawthorne and Lowell and TJ."
If you want to continue on the path of segregation in Teaneck (where 85% of kids in the lower grades are minorities), go ahead and put roadblocks to new ideas. I say we should consider offering Hebrew in only one school -- BUT make this classes open to all students.
Changing a trend that has been building for the last 30 years will take innovation, effort and conviction on the part of the school and parents -- not just details.
You don't have to be Jewish to take Hebrew. The classes would have to be and ought to be open to all Teaneck students.
CFA Guy:
Your suggestion that kids be clustered by religion flies in the face of the mission and purpose of an integrated public school system.
If what you say is true, that your particular group is not comfortable mixing with other people or has a penchant for ostracizing their own members who don't follow the party line, this not a problem that the public schools need to concern themselves with.
I am just happy that this is a debate about solutions. Thanks @CFAGuy.
CFA guy,
I agree with Esther. You can't have it both ways. You are going to have to choose.
I agree with Zev that this is a productive conversation which should continue, at least until Godwin's Law kicks in.
CFA Guy: Excellent, excellent analysis. Perhaps you are available to become the next superintendant?
However, it will be extremely difficult for the BOE to design a program intended to attract Orthodox parents in the dark -- without actually being able to reach out to the community and get some response on what would work for them. They can't go only by what they read in the blogosphere! I only hope that the BOE will reach out to Rabbi Zieler to try and tailor a program around his requirements, but what would really be needed is for Zieler to be, in turn, a conduit to the Orthodox community -- something that I gather is unlikely
Some Orthodox Jews, I'm not saying me, might give pause to sending their kids to Teaneck High School after seeing some of the dresses girls wear to their prom.
See pictures in Bergen Record here
YONI, would you of preferred that they dressed like Laura from Little House of the Prairie?!
anybody at the council meeting tuesday. what was this vote about the bergen improvement authr.and Toflor. i was shocked to hear that she voted yes about it even tho she spent 2 years bashing it and rudy. maybe her boss, lorretta told her to
So my white Whittier student would have to change schools based on her race and religion (or in our case, lack thereof). Mmm...that doesn't sit so well.
"it used to be that people went into education as a higher calling (i.e., to educate and have an impact on children) -- not to become wealthy."
So, what you are saying is that everyone who chooses teaching must be totally altruistic at the expense of everything else in their life? Teachers are supposed to be poor? This is one of the biggest problems with our education system: our best and brightest don't go into teaching because it doesn't pay. What an obnoxious comment.
I am a teacher who could be making a lot more money in another field but has chosen to teach in a yeshiva because of a "higher calling." Should have applied to the Teaneck School system a long time ago--I'd be making at least $40,000 more with my years of experience and advanced degree.
Heh Mr. CFA Guy, it used to be that people in the Orthodox community actually revered and valued teachers. Now it seems like fancy homes, numerous expensive syangogues (that double as social clubs), luxurious vacations and exorbitant camps seem to be more important than paying teachers a decent wage. Stop trashing teachers. Start looking inward at what has caused economic ineptitude and you will find the source of your problems.
And if you made $100,000 teaching in the public schools rather than $60,000 teaching in the private schools you still wouldn't be "rich" by any objective standard. You would be middle class.
What galls me is people who complain about teachers who make $100,000 when they make significantly more than that in their jobs.
It reflects a general disrespect for the importance of education and the contributions of teachers to the good of society.
Public School Parent-
Didn't the school system schedule its last open house on Passover?
That is a heck of a way to build Orthodox interest.
And find out what the Orthodox would be looking for.
Esther: It's the wonderful me first, blame others anti-intellectual world we live in. Don't you love it!!!
Esther you're missing a whole bunch of points.
First, CFA guy is saying putting orthodox kids together will encourage the kids' parents to make the move - that's the key. Not because they don't want to mix - by coming to public school they explicitly are mixing with kids of other backgrounds. The social lives of orthodox kids are more restrictive because of the sabbath so any parent of such a kid would want their child in school with others they will spend time with on Saturday.
Second, the issue of $100,000 salary is that it's too high given what teachers are making elsewhere - Teaneck's school budget is obscenely out of control and no one is being accountable for it, thus the vote. No one is begrudging teachers a good salary or negating the worth of what they do.
Esther:
You said: "Your suggestion that kids be clustered by religion flies in the face of the mission and purpose of an integrated public school system."
In Englewood, there was a proposal for a program in which Jewish kids would be in basically 100% Jewish classes.
My plan is for full classroom integration.
The Jewish kids will be in a normal class (e.g., 75-80% minority and 20%-25% white) for the whole day, except for one hour of Hebrew. The Hebrew class would be open to all the children in the school -- but I have trouble envisioning too many non-Jewish kids participating (I wouldn't do it if I weren't Jewish, even though I took three years of mandatory Latin in High School and I wasn't Catholic).
During most of the school day, 5 Jewish kids will be in a class of 20 children.
If the schools spread 20 Jewish kids in first grade among 3 schools and 18 classes (e.g., one Jewish kid per class), parents will continue to avoid the public school system.
Most of us live in Teaneck because we want our kids to live in a Jewish community -- where kids don't look abnormal wearing kippot or eating kosher. Just as many black professionals move to Teaneck because they want their kids to be in school with children of other black professionals, we want our kids to be in school with other Orthodox kids. This makes it easier for the kids to maintain the religious traditions and customs.
I can also assure you that the first families to send their kids to public school will be the most progressive within the Orthodox community -- and will want their kids to interact with all the children in the classroom. However, having a small core group of Orthodox kids in each class will make the transition much easier.
We will already need to fight against social pressures -- why make it more difficult?
My kids have a lot of non-Jewish friends. My kids' birthday parties are by far the most integrated in all of Teaneck (I dare anyone to prove me wrong). However, my kids' best friends are almost exclusively Orthodox. I have no problems with that -- but I want them to have social interaction with children of all backgrounds. I think this is very important for their social development and future success in life.
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YONI:
When it comes time for High School and social pressures become more pronounced, I could send them to Frisch -- where girls wear the same tiny dresses as in THS. After saving $15,000 a year for 9 years, I can splurge and pay for Frisch.
Anon at 4:22 PM.
"First, CFA guy is saying putting orthodox kids together will encourage the kids' parents to make the move - that's the key"
I couldn't have said it better or so succinctly.
Thank you.
But please use a screen name.
CFA guy, two things:
I think the Englewood idea is a moot point because everyone has acknowledged that it was basically a back door way of getting the public school system to create a charter school segregated by religion. While theis concepts may work in Florida, it doesn't fly in NJ for good reasons.
Second, when you propose clustering all the orthodox kids in one school to save money on Hebrew language teachers or to make them or their parents more comfortable, it a) sets an icky precedent and b) it raises all sorts of uncomfortable questions such as who decides who should be considered Jewish enough to be grouped with the orthodox kids? For example: what do we do with about a kid whose family is conservadox? Do they get to be clustered with the orthodox kids? Or would they orthodox people not want them to count? Can you see why this is problematic?
To be perfectly frank, this whole conversation makes me realize why there is such a philisophical rift between Orthodox Jews and other Jews. Maybe it's hard for you to see, but this stuff is very problematic for people who are secular.
Why can't a Hebrew language teacher move among schools during the school day?
Why wouldn't non-Jewish parents put their kids into a Hebrew class? Especially those interested in integration.
When it comes time for High School and social pressures become more pronounced, I could send them to Frisch -- where girls wear the same tiny dresses as in THS.
I was at a Frisch prom. There was much less skin showing. Too little, if you had asked me then.
Anonymous: All would be welcome to the Hebrew class.
Esther:
You are right that it is difficult to implement. I would say that five kids enrolled in the Hebrew class is a good number. I would want to make sure that my kid has a couple of Orthodox friends from school that live within walking distance or my house to play of shabbat.
And, as you said, details will be important.
On the "icky precedent". What is the problem if 20 first grade children are all in the same school of 400 children rather than split among three schools?
As I mentioned earlier, I don't want my kid to feel like he is the only kid with a yarmulka in school.
Once (or if) the Orthodox community sends 100 children to first grade, they can be split among three schools.
I think that the "icky" issue here is that there has been a terrible white-flight from the schools that nobody likes to admit. Anything that changes this trend should be considered positively (even if you are secular).
Secular vs Orthodox:
There is a huge rift between the secular and the Orthodox in town. But, for no good reason. As you said in a previous posting, the Orthodox people you got to know are more similar to you than you thought.
We are very different as clusters, but very similar on an individual level -- still, I would not join you at Red Lobster. This applies for almost everyone in Teaneck (not just Jews of different denominations). Teaneck is mainly composed of college educated professionals.
Just heard that Chabad has a day school next year in Port Washington, LI. Tuition is $7000. Many kids are coming from the Five Towns, with free busing.
Website
Here are the tuition and fees for the AFFORDABLE day school on the north shore:
Registration Fee: Non-refundable
$750
Elementary Tuition, Grades K-5:
Per Year
$6,900
Science Fee Tuition
$200
K-5 Total Tuition $7,100
K-5 Lunch
$750
Middle School Tuition, Grades 6-8:
Per Year $6,900
Science Fee Tuition $200
Total Middle School Tuition $7,100
Middle School Lunch $750
Sibling Discount: 10% off sibling tuition.
CFAGuy - there's a way to work this thing out even with all the Mars versus Venus issues. Can i say that i didn't know how my kids were going to fare being among the only white kids in their classes and as it turns out while i might see it that way, they don't and it is to the credit of the schools that they doba great job of creating an environment that is highly respectful of differences between kids including religious minorities. My daughter's class includes a sikh who wears a turban, several hindus, several muslims and a mormon.
What galls me is people who complain about teachers who make $100,000 when they make significantly more than that in their jobs.Esther,
You are equating a teacher with a Doctor or a Lawyer (or someone that makes $100k+) but the requirements to attain the positions are in no way equal.
Show me a teacher that goes through the same rigorous training as a cardiac surgeon and I'll gladly compensate them for their efforts.
A doctor or lawyer can't purchase a degree like a teacher can purchase a Masters diploma. They also don't get automatic pay increases or have the same ability to attend classes while working.
So if you are serious about talking about what teachers deserve, let's talk apples and apples.
I'm all for paying the best teachers higher salaries, unfortunately that's not allowed.
Swiggle - You act as though compensation is some kind of rule driven system in which there's some logical correlation between salary and the rigorousness of the training.
Fact is: there are no rules. Architects receive as much rigorous training as doctors or lawyers at a considerable cost in tuition and then most of them end up making salaries that are nothing to write home about. In contrast, the real estate development business involves no rigorous training to speak of and yet salaries often exceed those of doctors or lawyers.
Students wearing yamulkas is not new to Teaneck Public Schools.
Teachers generally have much more education than most Sales people (Stock Brokers, insurance salesman et al). You don't even need a college degree to sell most things but if you BS well you can make a lot of money. Is this fair?? I think not. Ester makes some very good points. So many people keep bashing teachers that make $100,000. In this area $100,000 isn't that much. Should teachers not be able to afford to live in the area they teach? Should they have to commute from far away just to teach in Teaneck? Teachers have to have a masters +32 credits and work more than 15 years to make over $100,000, that doesn't seem excessive. What would the average person with a masters and halfway to a doctorate make at a job after 15 years? I would think over $100,000 especially in this area. Teachers are the people molding our future, just remember that before you make stupid comments about teachers salaries.
CFA GUY-
If the 5, 20 or 100 orthodox kids actually want to enroll in the public schools and they dont all live in the same area of town why should they be bussed to another area of town to attend a school? I would think they should attend the school in the area that they live in so they can meet the kids make friends with the kids that actually live in their area.
Public servants should never make $100K+. If they want big bucks, let them work in the private sector where salaries are also based on performance of the individual and the success of the company.
As long as they're being paid by the public's pocketbook, they have no right to that kind of salary.
Public servants should never make $100K+. If they want big bucks, let them work in the private sector where salaries are also based on performance of the individual and the success of the company.President Barack Obama, like Bush, will be paid $400,000 in monthly installments, and an expense allowance of $50,000 to help defray official expenses.
The Teaneck school district pays $100K to a kindergarten gym teacher.
Now I do agree that a K gym teacher earning 100k/year is a joke but it would seem to be the norm in Teaneck.
OOR - Hate to break it to you but $100,000 is not a grand salary these days. It's what middle class people with advanced degrees expect to earn regardless of whether they work in the public or private sectors, which by the way, is irrelevent. Teaneck has sought to attract a high caliber of teachers and they have succeeded. And my family is grateful. If's your choice to pay thousands of dollars in extra money a year to send your kids to schools who don't provide decent compensation to their teaching staff. If you want to get your money's worth, send your kids to public school and put the thousands of dollars in annual savings toward a college fund.
Esther 100K for a kindergarten gym teacher, come on now, even you have to admit that is a bit over the top.
I mean we are not talking about an english/math/science or history teacher.
If you want to get your money's worth, send your kids to public school and put the thousands of dollars in annual savings toward a college fund.That would mean her kiddies would, gasp, have to mingle with the heathens or shiksa and shkutz of the public school populace!
$100,000 is a grand salary if I am paying it.
I have the same issue with rabbis in some of the local shuls and especially with executives of the various Jewish organizations who make huge salaries coming from the public's donations.
People should not take public/religious sector jobs if their intention is to make those kinds of salaries.
In the past people took government jobs knowing the salaries were not great, but the benefits and the pensions were good. Now, they've got it better than the average Joe.
And by the way, I already spent my kid's college fund on her kindergarten tuition.
oor
Again ester makes good points. Do you some how think that a kindergarten gym teacher who gets the same education as a high school gym teacher or for that matter a high school math teacher should make less. Should English teachers make less than math and science teachers? Maybe you could make a chart of which teachers you think should make what. I am sure everybody would love to hear your opinion. By the way if you actually make a chart you have no life and way to much time on your hands.
OOR I HOPE YOU DON'T LIVE IN TEANECK...IQ WISE YOU DO NOT CUT IT
A doctor goes to medical school. He/She has choices: Be a pediatrician and make less, be an internist and make less, be a brain surgeon and make more, etc. Accept Medicare or Medicaid and be reimbursed less but treat all patients or accept only private insurance, get reimbursed more, but limit yourself to rich patients.
They have the same education. They went to the same medical schools. They make choices.
Just like a doctor, a teacher has choices. Public school or private school; advanced calculus or kindergarten gym.
Pay them accordingly.
I already spent my kid's college fund on her kindergarten tuition.WOW! So your upset because of your own stupidity!
OOR move to Port Washington LI, it would seem you could get a cheap day school education for your kiddies and perhaps recoup some of what you pissed away on a kindergarten education!
OOR
So where is the chart with your all knowing numbers? Please tell me what the different teachers should make. Let's assume they all have a masters + 32 credits and have worked for 15 years. Please enlighten us.
@OOR
Public servants should never make $100K+. If they want big bucks, let them work in the private sector where salaries are also based on performance of the individual and the success of the company.See, this is where your logic falls on its face. You say that increasing taxes or decreasing salaries for private sector jobs stifles innovation, reduces performance, and ambition to do a good job. And then you complain that government isn't accountable and doesn't work the way it should. THEN you demand that the very things that you say make PRIVATE sector efficient and BETTER, be prohibited to public sector employees. Does this make any sense? You, like most conservatives, don't want to fix or improve government, you want to break government to the point where it collapses by your own hand. The only problem is that nowhere in the history of the world, has your philosophy of privatization and free-market religion ever worked.
The answer, like most solutions, falls right in the middle. Fix the system. Ensure public employees and held to account for the work they do. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.
Do you really need a masters degree to teach gym to kindergarten kids? Just wondering
Karin:
You said: "If the 5, 20 or 100 orthodox kids actually want to enroll in the public schools and they dont all live in the same area of town why should they be bussed to another area of town to attend a school?"
Right now, no orthodox kids want to enroll in public school unless they need special services. This is a problem, in my opinion.
My view is that if we can get some orthodox kids into public schools, other whites will come back.
I know Esther loves it that her daughters class includes a Sikh child. However, I think that a diverse student body should represent the population of the town or state in which it is located -- and having 2-3 white kids per class does not represent either Bergen County or Teaneck.
I think this is a big problem, and my premise is that it would be good for all students if the student body at the public schools looked more like the one in the Teaneck Charter School. (That's my assumption)
Karin:
Since you wrote a comment on Saturday morning, I assume that you are not an orthodox jew. My main concern is that the school would need to attract a group of parents that do not consider public school their first choice. Most of us moved to Teaneck to be in a Jewish community, where shopping for kosher food or going to a kosher restaurant is very easy, and where we have access to very good Jewish day schools.
Another aspect is that we want our children to grow up in a place where they would not feel different for wearing a kippa. My youngest goes to Bryant and wears a kippa without any problems, and the school is most accomodating. However, as he grows up, he will notice that he is different than all other children. Being in a class with other children like him would make my decision to attend public school easier.
I think that integrating orthodox kids is a win-win for both the orthodox parents and the school system. Busing is not new in town, and many kids who live close to Hawthorne go to Whittier. I am not sure why it would be wrong for Jewish kids to be bused.
The problem Teaneck has is that orthodox families who want to reduce the cost of private tuition are not considering the Teaneck Schools as their first choice. I would say that the first (or most popular) choice is moving to Israel, followed by a move to Tenafly or Fair Lawn. We have three close friends that moved to Israel (cheap Jewish education) and one close friend that moved to Tenafly (free public education in a well rated school with 62% white kids and 18% korean).
I think it is important for Teaneck to be considered as an attractive alternative as well. As a parent, I researched the schools in GreatSchools.net and I see that Teaneck High School has a score of 4, Fair Lawn has a 7 and Tenafly a 9. One can have many explanations/rationalizations, but these number have a lot of impact on people's decisions on where to live.
As happy as I am with my experience in Bryant, I am concerned about the district's performance. For other parents who never sent their kids to Bryant, these concerns are magnified.
Having a small group of orthodox children in the same classroom should make a huge difference in the decision that parents have to make.
The biggest concern that people usually have is about peer pressure, such as going to a party on a Friday night (in high school) or to go to a birthday party or other events on a Saturday. Having a group of orthodox children in the classroom makes life easier for parents. If my kid is the only Jewish kid in his third grade class, I would have to explain to an 8-year old child why all of his friends are going to a party that he cannot attend. If there are four other orthodox children, I can point to four other kids that have the same issue, and I can explain that he is not the only "weird" one.
This is very important and it is not simple to understand by people who do not have the same needs. Also, it has nothing to do with racism as you mentioned: "mingle with the heathens or shiksa". If I did not want the interaction with the non-Jews, I would not send them to a class that is 25% Jewish (the 5 kids), 50% black and 25% Hispanic and Asian (basically, the current Whittier mix).
Karin
We will just have to wait and see what salary OOR decides.
CFA -
Right now, no orthodox kids want to enroll in public school unless they need special services. This is a problem, in my opinion. Why is that a problem?
My view is that if we can get some orthodox kids into public schools, other whites will come back. It is not just orthodox kids that dont use the system there are other whites out there that dont use the system and that are not jewish, you do know that right? Just cause the orthodox may start to use the schools again will not make me enroll my non-jewish white kids in the schools.
I know Esther loves it that her daughters class includes a Sikh child. However, I think that a diverse student body should represent the population of the town or state in which it is located -- and having 2-3 white kids per class does not represent either Bergen County or Teaneck. Yes agree.
So back to my question you have no issue bussing a kid(s) from one area to attend school in another area just so they can be with other orthodox kids?
Zev Mo:
"The answer, like most solutions, falls right in the middle. Fix the system. Ensure public employees and held to account for the work they do. I DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT."
What about the Teachers' Union ?
If we stop restricting the number of charter schools and provide vouchers to poor families, it would give a good idea of market forces for teachers' jobs.
Not all the problems in education are due to teachers' unions; lawyers and fear of lawsuits are also problems.
We need to go back to the way things were...
Although I do not think that physical punishment (common in my father's time) is appropriate, we have moved way too far. School uniforms (grey slacks, white shirt, tie and no sneakers) helps with discipline and reduces peer pressure (clothing labels, etc.). In other countries, children in public schools must wear a white lab coat over their clothes. That way, everyone looks the same (no difference between poor and rich).
The ACLU would fight this affront to free speech. But, in school there is no be freedom of speech (children go to school to be educated). Free speech is a right that should be reserved for adults. In school, respect, discipline and good behavior are more important than freedom.
CFA Guy
What about the first Muslim kid, Born again Christine or Jehovah's Witness. Everyone has to start off first. You can't segregate the kids based on there religious beliefs. I would love to see more Orthodox go to the public schools but they should be placed in whatever school district they belong.
Since you wrote a comment on Saturday morning, I assume that you are not an orthodox jew.You assumed correctly :) but I knew I would have to wait till sunset today to get a reply, no biggie :)
Karin:
I have no problem with busing kids. I actually think that kids learn a lot of social skills in the bus. I thought you thought that was a problem.
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I usually hear complaints about how the orthodox have hurt the public school system by sending their kids to private school. I think that this refers that because the orthodox do not send their kids to public school, other jewish and non-jewish whites stopped doing it also. As a result, a town that is 50%+ white has an elementary public school population that is 15% white.
My theory is that if the school becomes 25% white (similar to the local charter school) by adding 30 orthodox kids per grade, then more whites will start considering the Teaneck public school as an option.
This should reverse the current trend (where the white proportion seems to drop by 10 percentage points a decade) -- and hopefully within 10 years, the school district would be 35% white.
--------------------
Why does a Kindergarten gym teacher need a master?
To make more money. The scale approved by the union requires it.
@CFAGuy
I won't make the leap from fixing the system and ensuring accountability, to vouchers and charter schools.
But, I do fully support school uniforms. But your assumption about the ACLU doesn't seem to stop the NYC public schools from doing it. Is the ACLU only a NJ organization?
Anon at 10:54
"I would love to see more Orthodox go to the public schools"
If that is true and you think there is value in it, then a small accomodation cannot hurt.
The fact is that whites have been leaving the Teaneck public schools at an accelerating rate for the past 25 years. I think this is bad for everyone.
One of the problems is that the orthodox don't send their kids to public school -- and as a matter of fact most other white parents don't either. (Unfortunately, it seems that we are not all as color blind as Esther's child).
If there is value in de-segragating Teaneck for a second time, then the BOE will need to make some accomodations -- and some convincing.
As I mentioned before, many people who switch from Yeshiva to public school do it by also switching towns (Tenafly and Fair Lawn are examples that have an orthodox Jewish community and a good public school system).
If the BOE does not care about having a school district with a diverse racial make up, they can continue with the attitude that caused the trend taking place over the last 25 years.
I would love to see this situation change. And if that requires that the orthodox be treated different than the first Muslim kid, what is the big problem. I think that the alternative (a continuing dwindling of the white population) is worse for everyone.
I don't want a classroom that is 100% Jewish (a racist and wrong view) or even majority white, but I think that having at least 5 Jewish kids in a classroom with 15 kids that are black, hispanic, muslim or anything else would be beneficial for all involved.
If the BOE cannot accomodate us, then I don't see any meaningful changes taking place.
Zev Mo:
We agree on something. I'm opening a bottle of champagne.
Do you think the BOE would go for uniforms?
I have no problem with busing kids. I actually think that kids learn a lot of social skills in the bus. I thought you thought that was a problem.
Yes it is a problem, especially if the kid lives by Hawthorne and should attend school there but gets bused to Whittier.
--------------------------------
I usually hear complaints about how the orthodox have hurt the public school system by sending their kids to private school. I think that this refers that because the orthodox do not send their kids to public school, other jewish and non-jewish whites stopped doing it also. As a result, a town that is 50%+ white has an elementary public school population that is 15% white.
My theory is that if the school becomes 25% white (similar to the local charter school) by adding 30 orthodox kids per grade, then more whites will start considering the Teaneck public school as an option.
This should reverse the current trend (where the white proportion seems to drop by 10 percentage points a decade) -- and hopefully within 10 years, the school district would be 35% white.I dont think that the nonjewish white flight has anything to do with the orthodox jews not using the schools. I for one dont use the schools and send my kids to private school for the simple reason that I do not think the schools academically are that wonderful.
----------------------------------
Why does a Kindergarten gym teacher need a master?
To make more money. The scale approved by the union requires it.Okay. and we wonder why the BOE cant control spending?!
CAF-
Accommodate the orthodox?! Why should the BOE accommodate?! Either you guys want to use the schools or not. the tone of your last post implies that you deserve to be accommodated -- what is so special about your group outside of your whiteness ??
You really dont see a problem with grouping kids by religion in the public schools do you? You think that this is an acceptable policy and actually are demanding that the BOE of does this!
@CFAGuy
I hope they would go for uniforms. I remember how fitting in with the right clothes, when I was in the Teaneck public schools, was an expensive and worrisome experience. Not only that, but even though the schools have a "dress code", it really isn't an enforced policy. Unless you are really, really, really in violation of the code, you might be called in. But tight clothes, sexually suggestive, or outright provocative clothing is worn by nearly everyone. Besides the fact of them being exceptionally expensive, and a focal point of bullying, I think uniforms would end up being far cheaper than regular clothes. I just went and bought a pair of Levi's last week and they were $59/pair. Don't even get me started about other brands like Lucky jeans, $120/pair, etc..
As to potential arguments by others about freedom of expression, schools are not a place for garment expression, it's about using your brain for expression. Having the wrong clothes threw you into a subset of the student body most associated with social throwaways. And those who wore very creative clothing were ALSO viewed as being outsiders. The funny thing about that argument is it is the "freedom of expression" is all about how to MOST conform with the approved fashion trend of the moment. So, as a son of a fashion designer, NO, I don't find uniforms as a suppression of creativity or expression. It isn't about expression, it is about conformity, but to an expensive and terribly stressful experience to those who do not fall in line. A waste of money, a distraction from work, and a potential source of animosity and forced group identification in fear of retribution from fellow peers.
The most important thing that needs to be upheld with uniforms is, it has to be a uniform. Everyone buys the same make pants, same shirt, same skirt, same/same. If all you need are khaki pants, one kid will have Wal-Mart ones and another kid will have Tommy Hilfiger. It doesn't solve the problem. This applies to ALL schools, not just public schools.
Karin:
The Teaneck school system already buses children to make sure that every school in town has the same proportion of white kids, black kids and any other denomination that they consider appropriate.
There muslim kids that live a couple of blocks from Hawthorne being bused to Whittier. This gives all the schools in town a similar racial make-up and avoids a situation where one school is majority white and another majority black -- It has been this way since the 1960s.
I do not think that one of the three elementary schools in Teaneck should be majority white or majority Jewish. I would like to see all of the schools have the same racial profile -- but instead of being 15% white, I would like them to be 25% or 35% white.
My premise is that this would be attractive to most people in town, but this is obviously not something that is important to you. I want to make clear that I think that politics and religion have no room in the classroom. Actually, my biggest problem with Bryant is that my 5-year old is being brainwashed and pre-programmed to become a democrat in his Kindergarten class.
Somehow all the black and female politicians they speak about in school are Democrats (where are Clarence Thomas and Condoleeza Rice ?).
One of the reasons why I wrote in this post is because I would like to see the reactions of different people to this idea.
Most orthodox people have the same opinion as you: "I send my kids to private school for the simple reason that I do not think the schools academically [and socially for orthodox] are that wonderful."
The orthodox do not use or want to use the public schools. If the BOE thinks this would be helpful, some accomodations may not be so bad. After all, I think that all kids and not just the orthodox will benefit from this -- and the orthodox are not that interested.
Note that I would consider this program successfull if we add 20 Orthodx kids per grade level (maybe 10%-15% of all orthodox kids in town).
Maybe, if this succeeds, your kids will one day consider the public schools as a possible alternative for them or for their children.
Zev Mo:
Interesting. I like your idea that grey slacks are not sufficient, but everyone must buy the exact same brand of grey slacks as well.
Propose it to the BOE ! I'll sign the petition.
Zev Mo:
Where does your 7-year old go to school?
The Teaneck school system already buses children to make sure that every school in town has the same proportion of white kids, black kids and any other denomination that they consider appropriate.See I was not aware of this. I do not recall kids getting bussed to another school when I went through the system but then way back when there actually where more white kids in the schools so perhaps it was not such a big issue?!
There muslim kids that live a couple of blocks from Hawthorne being bused to Whittier. This gives all the schools in town a similar racial make-up and avoids a situation where one school is majority white and another majority black -- It has been this way since the 1960s.Racial makeup being the key word. What you want to do is based on religion not race. There is a difference there.
I do not think that one of the three elementary schools in Teaneck should be majority white or majority Jewish. I would like to see all of the schools have the same racial profile -- but instead of being 15% white, I would like them to be 25% or 35% white.OK.
My premise is that this would be attractive to most people in town, but this is obviously not something that is important to you.No not really unless the level of education improves the public schools in town do not interest me. In all actuality the schools my kids attend are actually more racially diversified than the Teaneck schools.
I want to make clear that I think that politics and religion have no room in the classroom. Totally agree! But you are bringing religion into the equation at every turn.
Most orthodox people have the same opinion as you: "I send my kids to private school for the simple reason that I do not think the schools academically [and socially for orthodox] are that wonderful." So do you think an infusion of orthodox jews is going to change that?
Maybe, if this succeeds, your kids will one day consider the public schools as a possible alternative for them or for their children.CAF I am a product of the Teaneck PS's and Teaneck was never a possibility for my kids. Unless they drastically improve on many fronts my kids will remain where they are.
CFA guy - while i agree with your goals, with all due respect, your argument is weakened by the arrogant assumptions at the core - about white people and about Jews in particular. I would imagine that people or color and non-jews might be put off by the sense of superiority and entitlement that you convey. A little humility might help strengthen your case.
CFA Guy
I hate to have to be an Esther cheerleader again but her last post summed it up exactly. When I went through the public school system it was a great blend people (race & religion). The make up of the school system didn't start to change until the Orthodox started to move in and take there kids out. It would be great to get them into the public school system but they would have to go to whatever district they belong to. It is hard for all kids that are "different" Jehovah Witness's kids have to leave the room when there are birthday celebrations, that must be hard for them. When my mother went to school and asked why she couldn't have a Christmas tree like her other friends her mother had to explain. That is what you have to do with your children, sit them down and explain the differences (good ones and bad ones). I also agree about the uniforms, sign me up.
@CFAGuy
Noam
CFA Guy,
If your family and a few of your neighbors enrolled in the public school system, there is a good chance they would be in the same schools. In my opinion, the exception you are requesting would only add to others' prejudice. This will not help anyone.
CFA Guy: I am Orthodox and you certainly don't speak for me so don't presume to do so. Racial intolerance, childish views of superiority and disrespect for education are completely antithetical to a Torah way of life. Stop pontificating (about things you don't know much about) and go and learn so you don't say such embarassing and inappropriate things.
What people fail to realize is the old school teaneck folks moved out when jews and blacks started to dominate the town. We did not build a lot of houseing, the old whites ran ....ridgewood and the like
Esther:
I am not sure what you mean by my "arrogant assumptions about white people and about Jews in particular."
I am not trying to make assumptions. I looked at the statistics and see that whites (except for rare exceptions such as yours) have left the Teaneck public school system (including the TeaneckProgress posters Karin and ZevMo who stated in these pages that they attended public school but their children are in private schools). I am assuming that they are white.
I heard many arguments similar to the one from Anon @12:15 PM who stated that: "The make up of the school system didn't start to change until the Orthodox started to move in and take there kids out."
I don't understand what Anon @7:45 PM means when he says that I don't speak for him or for other orthodox parents. I would like to know his views about public school, whether he sends his kids there and if not, why not.
Esther: I am actually trying to understand a little more about people's views. I have told you my perspective. The issues I consider in evaluating school for my kids are as follows (they are not in order of importance):
(1) Secular Education: How good is the education ? How are the schools ranked ? Do parents share my views on education or homework ?
(2) Social Issues: What social issues will my child face ? Is there a problem with bullying ? Will my child be the only orthodox kid in school ? Will he have friends that he can play with on shabbat (kids that live walking distance from our home) ? Will the kids need to be in Jewish school until 6PM every day and miss on afternoon activities/sports ?
(3) Jewish Education: Will my child have a good Jewish education ? Will he learn to speak Hebrew ? Will he be able to pray properly ? Will he know the basic and not so basic laws of Jewish life ? Will he learn Jewish religious texts ?
When I looked at all of these issues, I determined that the best school for my children is Yavneh Academy. I sent two of my children to Bryant for the pre-K/K class because they have speech problems. I was very impressed by the school and the teachers, and I started looking into why public school is not considered an alternative among orthodox parents.
The main impediments in my view are the following:
(1) There is no orthodox-run afternoon school program to complement a public school education with Jewish studies and hebrew language. The problem is that even if a program is started, parents would be taking a risk because it is not clear how good this program would be.
(2) There is apprehension in the orthodox Jewish community about attending public school. After all, almost 100% of these children atted private schools. Anything different than the norm entails a level of risk for the families.
If it is beneficial to integrate a number of these kids (beneficial for them and for the community at large), I don't see the problem with making some accomodations.
Esther believes that this statement shows that I have a "sense of superiority and entitlement" because I am implying that my children (or Jewish children or white children) are somehow better and need to be treated better than other kids. I disagree and resent this implication.
For one, my kids are not counted as white when computing the racial make up of the schools. Also, if I had such sense of superiority, I would happily leave my children in their 100% Jewish cocoon of a school and would not even be discussing this possibility.
This article started it all.
http://www.jstandard.com/index.php/content/item/a_mothers_solution_to_the_yeshiva_tuition_crisis/6475
After this article was published, tens of letters and op-ed pieces made it into the local Jewish paper discussing public schools and yeshivot.
Thank you Amy for starting it all.
For one, my kids are not counted as white when computing the racial make up of the schools.What are they counted as, if not white?
I understand what CFA guy is saying. I have two white, non Jewish kids in the public schools (grades 7 & 10) and like Esther am very happy with the education they are receiving. I have no doubt that their exposure to people of so many different backgrounds has enriched their lives. One of the main reasons we chose Teaneck to raise our children was the diversity of the town but our schools do not represent that diversity. For my family TPS is the right choice,but I would not be honest if I did not admit to having my doubts at times, like when I watched my son line up on the first day of school and he was 1 of 3 white kids in his class.
I think it would be a good thing for our schools to work with the Orthodox community. I believe, as CFA guy does, that if the Orthodox kids started enrolling we would see an increase in enrollment by all of the white community.
Hopeful
I agree with trying to get the Orthodox into the public schools but you are a perfect example of why CFA is wrong about how he wants to go about it. Are your "white" kids bussed to a different school so they can have 5 kids "just like them in a class" NO!! they go in the district they belong, you may feel uncomfortable but that is the way it works. Should we try to get all the Catholic school kids to come back to the public schools by offering Latin classes and bussing them together. I would love the public schools to represent the make up of the town but it is up to the parents that don't send there kids to the public school to make that change possible
CFA Guy - Sorry if I said anything to offend you. This is an awkward medium.
You've implied that your were largely satisfied with your experiences at Bryant. Perhaps you could elaborate here a bit about what you liked about it. I think a lot of people who are not using the schools have all sorts of misperceptions about what the public schools are like relative to the religious schools. The best way to sell the idea of using the public schools is for people in the orthodox community to hear from Orthodox families who have taken advantage of the public schools about what's right about the schools:
How is the quality the teachers?
How is the academic environment?
Is the administration responsive to parental concerns?
Are the schools clean and well run?
Are the children well behaved?
Is there a respect for differences?
Is bullying tolerated?
Esther-
The orthodox jews or anyone for that matter can visit the schools and classrooms whenever they want (well make an appointment first).
I know that the HS holds an open house each year but perhaps the other schools should follow suit and offer 1 or 2 open houses a year. It would give parents a chance to see the schools/ speak with teachers/students/admin etc.
Karin - I don't think that many people who are inclined to send their kids to private school take the time to investigate the public schools at all. Who has time?
My sense is that there is a disconnect in impressions between people who have experienced the schools first hand and those who are going on test scores and hearsay. It's worth hearing the impressions of the schools from people, like CFA Guy, who are inclined to use private schools, but, for various reasons, have used, or continue to use the public schools. I think that these people provide a valuable source of information about the schools and are viewed as more reliable than people like me who are viewed as having a bias.
I don't think that many people who are inclined to send their kids to private school take the time to investigate the public schools at all. Who has time?I guess your right Esther. I guess I assumed that folks that sent their kids to private schools actually investigated the public schools before making that choice. Perhaps now though since so many are complaining about day school tuitions they will take the time to see for themselves first hand what the schools are like. They made decide after the fact that they (PS) still are not for them but at least they have something to base that on.
My sense is that there is a disconnect in impressions between people who have experienced the schools first hand and those who are going on test scores and hearsay. Your probably right Esther. I mean if people don't have the time to actually visit schools etc. then they really don't have anything outside of hearsay to go on.
It's worth hearing the impressions of the schools from people, like CFA Guy, who are inclined to use private schools, but, for various reasons, have used, or continue to use the public schools. OK.
See, @CFAGuy is in an increasing percentage of the Orthodox community. He is what we refer to as between a rock and a hard place. How does someone who needs what public school AND Yeshiva (private) educations/systems are providing when it comes to finding the best solution to their child's education? It is the perfect predicament. The only solution here is, half day at each. It isn't perfect, and it isn't easy, but it is necessary.
Parents need part of the public school and part of Yeshiva education. It is advantageous for the public schools too. You are only increasing the school system by half of the total who would utilize this system. In other words, if you have half go to secular in the morning at public school, and the rest are in hebrew, the other half are opposite of this, then switch mid-day.
There are downsides, however, it is still going to cost money to have this dual system. Costs won't go down by 50%, the facilities (which may have an ability to close unused buildings or separate locations) still cost what they cost, and utilities still cost what they cost. And staff will have to be adjusted accordingly to compensate (whether they will be able to be added into the current public school system is a good question).
Look, there are no great solutions here, only what best meets the need for the community as a whole. Until we can have public school buildings able to lease out space to a yeshiva system, this is the best we can do to lower costs, utilize the best of both systems, and get the Orthodox community even slightly interested.
No solution will be acceptable to many in the Orthodox community. Like everyone, we want our cake and eat it too. We want free Yeshiva education paid for by township taxes that costs $5/year, and every child is a little angel. It just isn't realistic.
So, I think a solution is right in the middle between what we currently have and vouchers. A hybrid solution whose details are very difficult to iron out, but nonetheless imperative to many. What we have now will not last. And it is only a question of when we will reach the point where everyone realizes that.
Anon 6:58
I don't necessarily agree with all of CFA guy's ideas, but I do agree that there are many white families who are not using the public schools because of the low numbers of whites currently enrolled. I know several families who send their kids to private schools for exactly this reason. I think we need to be open to all ideas and keep the dialog going. As has been said many times, the devil is in the details. But we can not get hung up on the details until we have actually started a dialog with the Orthodox community and the BOE. We must also get it there that there is an awsome education to be had here in Teaneck.
BTW, Teaneck does actually bus elementary school kids to keep the schools racially balanced. Many kids do go to their neighborhood schools, but many others do not.
Karin:
My kids are categorized as hispanic.
What can I say, Jews are a diverse lot.
My oldest speaks perfect Spanish and plays soccer in a team in which only two kids don't. Most of his yeshiva friends playing baseball at TBO instead.
Someone is spreading misinformation. The BOA doesn't integrate the schools on a house by house basis. It goes by neighborhood.People who live within walking distance og one of three elementary schools attend those schools. Kids who live in West Englewood would most certainly attend Whittier. To balance out the schools, the BOA changes the mix of kids bused in from neighborhood that are not close to one of the three schools. It is entirely conceivable that a cluster of OJ kids would end up at Whittier.
Esther:
Answers to your questions:
Q: How is the quality the teachers?
A: Excellent. We loved all three teachers we had. And our kids also loved them. More importantly, the teachers kept the kids very well behaved and interested.
As a tax payer I still complain about the cost of these teachers, though.
Q: How is the academic environment?
A: We love how pre-K and K children are mixed into one classroom and how well the teachers manage the kids.
One of my kids was reading better after finishing pre-K at Bryant than my other kid after finishing K at Noam.
The problem is that I do not know anything about older grades. We send our kids to Jewish day school for elementary school.
Q: Is the administration responsive to parental concerns?
A: We were very happy with the school, even though we did not have any requests from the administration. As I mentioned in a previous post, I was very put off by the very heavy politization of the schools. Sometimes when I go into the school I feel that I am at one of Obama's campaign offices.
Q: Are the schools clean and well run?
A: I didn't really check.
Q: Are the children well behaved?
A: I consider the kids in public school (at least at 5 years of age) to be very well behaved and respectful of the teachers and adults (when they come to birthday parties at my home). I find Jewish kids to be more disrespectful.
Q: Is there a respect for differences?
A: At orientation, and before birthday parties at school, the teachers always remind parents to bring only kosher food so that all the kids can participate.
We went to some birthday parties where parents bought kosher pizza and cakes just because of our kid and we also went to other parties where our kid could not eat anything -- very difficult when the child is 5. We also had a few birthday parties that we could not go to because they were on Saturday and were too far to walk (we also walked to two parties held on Saturdays).
Q: Is bullying tolerated?
A: I had one bad experience. A kid was transferred to my child's class some weeks after the school year started because he was being bullied and hurt in his previous class. Instead of dealing with the bully, they transferred the victim to another class. I also heard about bullying problems at Whittier. For comparison, I never had any bullying issues at my Jewish school.
All of my comments are based on Bryant, which only has kindergarten classes, so it may not be very useful for people considering older grades -- but Bryant is outstanding (if you don't mind your child becoming an Obama-loving brainwashed child).
Funny comment about Obama.
What can I say, Jews are a diverse lot.You mean you are not all lilly white (GASP) who knew?!
And it is not just the Jews that are a diverse lot...many faiths are :-)
With all due respect Esther, bussing does occur. While it does not go by a house by house basis - I don't think that anyone suggested that, it does go by neighborhoods and racial demographics do play a part in the zoning. My kids went to Hawthorne but several of their friends who live as little as one block away went to Lowell. On one side of Queen Ann Rd. the kids go to Hawthorne, but just cross the street and those kids go to Lowell even though they may only live 1 mile away from Hawthorne.The same is true about Degraw- one side goes to Hawthorne but cross over and they go to either Whittier or Lowell (Whittier I think- but am not sure). The kids who live behind the library go to Whittier and there are kids who live near Bryant who go to Hawthorne and TJ. They do make an effort to keep the schools racially balanced,though the last time that I am aware of any rezoning was when my oldest was in 1st grade ( he is now in 10th grade).
cfa guy - thanks for your response. It mirrors my experience in Bryant which incidentally continued through Lowell and BF. As my kids have moved from one school to the next, i've always been apprehensive at first and then delighted to find a consistency in the seriousness of the schools to create and maintain an environment that encourages academic achievement. Too bad its lost on alot of kids, but i blame the parents.
Of course I think all the Obama stuff is terrific and i think it makes some degree of sense for a school district that is focused on narrowing the achievement gap to highlight Obama's accomplishments.
Hopeful - i think we are in agreement. The schools do indeed bus kids to achieve racial balance but they do it by neighborhood not on a house by house basis. They have to make decisions as to where to draw the lines that define who goes to whay school and in cases it might be down the middle of a street. But in general kids who live in the same neighborhood are assigned to the same school.
One other thing worth noting is that the schools are very accomodating to parents who wish to send their kids, for whatever reason, to a school other than the one to which they are assigned. I don't know of any parent who's request to switch was ever denied.
CFA Guy
You stated in a post a couple of days ago that:
"I don't want a classroom that is 100% Jewish (a racist and wrong view) or even majority white, but I think that having at least 5 Jewish kids in a classroom with 15 kids that are black, Hispanic, Muslim or anything else would be beneficial for all involved." But then your stated your kids are Hispanic (not white). All I am saying is if you start moving kids all over the place because you want to keep a group of Orthodox kids together, where does it stop??? Do you move your children because they are Hispanic or white or Jewish. Hopefully said "I don't necessarily agree with all of CFA guy's ideas, but I do agree that there are many white families who are not using the public schools because of the low numbers of whites currently enrolled." Your children would not help with his concerns if they are Hispanic. It was hard to understand your post because it did sound like you not only wanted to bring the Orthodox back but you kept speaking about bringing whites back into the system. It is great you had such a good experience at Bryant if I were you I would try to continue with the public school and see how you do. Maybe if other families start to see more positive feed back from families like you and Esther things can change.
Esther:
Teachers need to leave the politics and religion at home.
"Of course I think all the Obama stuff is terrific..."
If you want to highlight accomplishments of black people, you can also mention Condy Rice, Colin Powell and Clarence Thomas, and place less emphasis on one political party to showcase the progress that blacks have made in America.
Clarence Thomas may be unfashionable because he is a conservative, but he is a descendant of slaves who was boprn in a poor black community in the South and worked his way from poverty to the Supreme Court -- a true inspiring life story.
Second, Obama should not be considered an example about "narrowing the achievement gap". I am not sure what the achievement gap is. If by this you mean that black public school kids in Teaneck perform worse than their peers, Obama is not a good example.
For one, he send his daughters to a $30,000 a year private school so they don's have to share a classroom with the black DC kids that fell into the "gap".
I think the constitution must be amended to require that elected officials and government employees send their children to public school. Sometimes I think that we live in a third world country, where powerful politicians have their own schools and are afraid to have their own kids mix with the lower castes.
Is this how Obama inspires our kids suffering from the achievement gap? If you don't want to be in the gap, go to the rich people's school !
As much as you may hate George W. Bush, he nominated the first and second black seceretaries of state. More importantly, when he moved to Austin as Governor, he sent his daughters to public school -- to a PUBLIC high school with a heavily minority (Hispanic) population.
CFA - I think you bring up some important and valid points.
Alan Keyes and Michael Steele are two other names that come to mind.
And a quick thought inspired by your comment about W (apologies Esther that this is a tangent)...While I am deeply disappointed (if not ashamed) by the previous adminstration, I dislike how many people in Teaneck (and elsewhere) used it as a "crutch" to blame it for just about everything. Even during these hard times, there are a lot of choices we can make to have better outcomes.
CFA Guy
How can you of all people say "Teachers need to leave the politics and religion at home."
All you talk about is how we can get the Orthodox (a part of the Jewish religion) back into our public schools. You can't have it both ways. I see nothing wrong with using Obama as a roll model for young black or for that matter any students. I can't see how much harm that can be, especially in a kindergarten class.
Anon at 10:25 PM
I do not want the public schools to convert all the children in town into Orthodox Jews and I especially DO NOT WANT the public schools to brainwash my children with the Teachers' Union's favorite politician.
Teach my kids math, english, geography, Spanish, etc. at school and let me teach my kids Judaic studies and politics by myself.
Getting the Orthodox back in school does not mean teaching Jewish studies at school.
Just because the children of Democrats go to public school, you should not make schools a hostile environment for children of Republicans.
Anon at 6:12 PM
You said: "But then your stated your kids are Hispanic (not white)."
My kids are both Hispanic (ethnicity) and white (race). The census defines hispanic as an ethnicity based on origin, not race. As the U.S. Census Bureau explains: "People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race."
Then you said: "if I were you I would try to continue with the public school and see how you do."
The problem is that I cannot (or choose not to) send my children to public school in its current form past K. I need to give my children a secular education and a Jewish education. There is no afternoon Jewish studies program right now. In order to create one, we need to have a minimum number of Orthodox kids joining the school system. Thus, I need to convince other people who are reluctant to join the public schools.
This seems to be a uniquely Jewish problem. I can't teach my kids Hebrew, prayer or any other Jewish topics myself. It probably takes 3 hours a day.
As I mentioned earlier, I would not send my child to public school for social reasons either. I don't want my kid to be deprived of the activities that all the other kids in his class enjoy (such as birthday parties on a Saturday, non-kosher food, etc.). If there is are 5 orthodox kids in his class, I know that he would at least have other kids that would be in a similar situation and would support each other.
OBAMA AS A ROLE MODEL:
If Obama does not want his kids to belong to a classroom that is 90% black, why should I have my kids suffer in a class that is 95% non-Jewish? "Suffer" because they cannot join the other kids in fun activities.
Unlike Obama, at least I am trying to explore a way to send my kids to public school that meets my objectives.
Anon at 10:25
"I see nothing wrong with using Obama as a roll model for young black or for that matter any students."
First, Obama is not a piece of bread (roll).
Second, Obama is a terrible ROLE model for public school kids because he is not a porduct of the public school system (thus not a role model), and also because he chose private school for his daughters.
Michelle is a different story !
And her parents are probably the best role models you can find.
You cant teach your kids Hebrew? Gosh how did I manage to teach both my kids to speak /read german fluently by the age of 5/6? How do other dual language households manage to teach their kids another language?
CFA Guy
you said "My kids are both Hispanic (ethnicity) and white (race). The census defines Hispanic as an ethnicity based on origin, not race. As the U.S. Census Bureau explains: "People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race." but when you spoke about the way the schools are broken down you separated white and Hispanic into separate groups. Which is it, you can't pick and choose when you want to "check the box or not" and before you think I am making a racist comment my family is of mixed race. Do you consider your children to be minorities, not because they are Jewish but because they are Hispanic? You keep saying whites and minorities, do you just mean Blacks or just anyone without light skin
CFA Guy, Teaneck's public school students spend time studying the accomplishments of other African Americans including Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas and many others, especially during Black History Month. I believe that at Bryant, during years when the country has not just elected and inaugurated it's first black president, the BHM curriculum focuses mainly on the accomplishments of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The suggestion that the Bryant staff is attempting to brainwash the students into supporting the teacher's union is hilarious.
I was very moved by the way that the kids in the schools responded to this past election. The engagement and enthusiasm was wonderful and I hope that it has a lasting impact in terms of inspiring there kids to do their best.
I didn't see lots of overt campaigning in the schools prior to the election, but once the election was over, the schools rightfully decided to use this moment in history to inspire kids to do their best and I can't see a problem with that. Lowell School even changed their slogan to "Yes We Can."
By complaining the Obama sends his kids to private school, CFA Guy is parroting typical (and shameful) rhetoric of the right wing to diminish the importance of recent events on the lives of these young people.
Obama is a very inspiring figure to a lot of people in the country. He's also very threatening to the right wing which is currently in tatters, because of his communication skills and moderate positions on the issues. The right will do stoop to any level to try to undermine Obama's effectiveness because they're peddling a failed ideology.
@CFAGuy
I wrote up this whole message about how Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas, Michael Steele, Alan Keyes, Colin Powell, etc. are particularly controversial in their own way, and firefox crashed.
I'll try and recreate a shorter version, but the first one was better.
Condi Rice:Arguably one of the most blind ideologues of the Bush Administration, she aided in ignoring over 52 intelligence reports before 9/11, and according to Richard Clarke, refused to even set up a meeting to discuss OBL and other emerging threats. Her record on Russia (her specialty) was piss-poor, at best. North-Korea's nuclear program flourished under her watch. Um, Iraq, that's all I will say. And because of the administrations (David Frum's speech- Axis of Evil) stance on Iran, Ahmadinejad gained power and continued ramping up their ambitions. She enjoyed her shoe shopping while Katrina's path lay flooded. Condi also asked to destroy a memo Philip Zelikow, a top State Department lawyer who was her adviser, that said that EIT are torture. Pardon me if I am unimpressed with Condi Rice as a role model. Oh, yeah, she can play a mean classical piano... cool.
Michael Steele:He is the best tool the Democratic party has. He gaffs more than VP Joe Biden, he holds basically no power (at least the party doesn't trust him with it), and he decries the very reason the Republicans put him in his job in the first place, because of race. And he's going to complain about the choice for the Supreme Court? %^&(% please! The man constantly works against the interests of the very people he wants to bring into the Republican party, the "urban" and minority electorate. And then they wonder why black folk see the Republican party with outright skepticism for their glaringly hypocritical positions. Give me a break.
Alan Keyes:OK, seriously, he's crazy. And I am not just using hyperbole, he's flippin' bonkers. Did I mention looney tunes? All you have to do is listen to 2 minutes of any speech he makes, and you can tell he has a complete disassociation from reality. Nuff said.
Colon Powell:A true American hero and patriot. I am sure they talk about him. You could mention the whitewashing of Mai Lei Massacre, or the totally fake/fraudulent/criminal "facts" they brought in from of the UN in regards to Iraq's capabilities, but he has acknowledged his culpability in that regard, which is again honorable. But, he is trying to be thrown out of the Republican party by those extreme elements (otherwise known as the majority) that brought the party down in the first place. They love him when they agree with him, but when he disagrees or votes for Obama, he's a racist! Oh, I see. Grand Old Party, indeed.
Clarence 'have a Coke' Thomas:Ah, my most favorite of all, Heir Clarence. The receiver of Affirmative Action and racial preference, but hates them both. An educated man (I would call him an intellectual lightweight, but that is just me) who was chosen specifically because of his race, and who actually played the race card in his senate confirmation hearing, after having shown what kind of unprofessional person he really was with the pubic hair incident. He is the MOST activist judge on the Supreme court:
(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/06/opinion/06gewirtz.html) even though the Republicans hold conferences screaming bloody murder over "Activist Judges."
Thomas 65.63 %
Kennedy 64.06 %
Scalia 56.25 %
Rehnquist 46.88 %
O'Connor 46.77 %
Souter 42.19 %
Stevens 39.34 %
Ginsburg 39.06 %
Breyer 28.13 %
But, again, he's the Republican's activist, so that means is isn't an activist. Ah, I see. Peace means War. Love means Hate. Orwell would be proud.
@CFAGuy
Part 2:
So, it seems that what Republicans do is they point to Black Republicans and say, "see, we have some", and expect that it means the exact same thing, despite what they actually DO. Despite what their policy impacts are. Despite what the subtle underbelly of their ideology is. I understand that a role model doesn't have to be a perfect person, and you can look up to specific things a person has accomplished. I get that, but you also have to look at the totality of the persons works, and my personal opinion is, other than Colon Powell, these people have certain notable qualities that are completely annihilated by their overarching failures. The Republican party is imploding under the weight of the idiocracy it possesses. And as weak as the Democratic party has been for Decades, it took the Republican party to destroy itself by the same, self-loathing ideologues that dreamed up the "new" conservative movement in the late 70's. I look forward to a new party to emerge from this disaster, hopefully this time without the focus on G-d, Guns, Gays, and undying love to debunked free-market capitalism as the only subjects that exist.
Zev,
I'm sure you've read Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States, so perhaps you'd like to enlighten the rest of us as to why we shouldn't teach about Columbus anymore.
The fact of the matter is that the elementary schools do a great job of highlighting the good that certain actors accomplished and could easily do the same for people that "have certain notable qualities that are completely annihilated by their overarching failures."After all, I don't think that anything Condi, Clarence or Cooky Allen haven done can compare to the brutality that Columbus brought forth upon this great nation!
This is a red herring. My kids learned about Columbus in School.
This is a red herring. My kids learned about Columbus in School.
Esther,
That's my point. What did they learn about Columbus?
Columbus wrote in his log:"They... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned.... They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane.... They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.""As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts."
Did they teach yours kids about how Columbus subjugated them?
Were taught this?
Because of Columbus's exaggerated report and promises, his second expedition was given seventeen ships and more than twelve hundred men. The aim was clear: slaves and gold. They went from island to island in the Caribbean, taking Indians as captives. But as word spread of the Europeans' intent they found more and more empty villages. On Haiti, they found that the sailors left behind at Fort Navidad had been killed in a battle with the Indians, after they had roamed the island in gangs looking for gold, taking women and children as slaves for sex and labor.
And in case you thought he was just misunderstood:
In the year 1495, they went on a great slave raid, rounded up fifteen hundred Arawak men, women, and children, put them in pens guarded by Spaniards and dogs, then picked the five hundred best specimens to load onto ships. Of those five hundred, two hundred died en route.
Yet as you said....your kids learn about Columbus. Of that I'm sure you're correct, but what do they learn about him?
My point is that they can talk about how black men and women have achieved high posts without going into a tizzy about their failures.
@Swiggle
'A People's History of the United States' is referenced often in my house. I also like 'Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong'
I am all about tossing Columbus. Hell, a lot of our textbook history is just fabricated or romanticized. What about the Thanksgiving story? We have totally gone off the deep end already, why continue? It just makes us look like idiots to the rest of the world.
I AGREE WITH ESTHER finally.
Esther is correct to point out that prior to the elections, all discussions were very well balanced between the two candidates.
Swiggle:
What bothered me is that when they learned about women in politics they talked about Hillary instead of Condoleeza.
It seems that being a Republican is the best way to be deleted from school discussion.
Zev: How quickly we forget about a president that harrassed a college intern with a cigar? Imagine being a parent proud that your daughter got an internship in the white house only to learn in the newspapers that the president stained her dress.
We all have our failings. I still feel that there is too much politization in school (and that you only find fault in people who disagree with you.)
Hell, a lot of our textbook history is just fabricated or romanticized.
As long as you don't start teaching the war of Northern aggression...
@CFAGuy
How quickly we forget about a president that harrassed a college intern with a cigar? Imagine being a parent proud that your daughter got an internship in the white house only to learn in the newspapers that the president stained her dress.Oh, how could I forget?
The Republican party tried to impeach a Democrat for, pardon me, a blowjob. All of the millions of dollars spent on finding nothing but -gate after -gate of nonsense.
But you are equivocating Bill Clinton's sexual escapades and the killing of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people because of the lies of the past administration. I fail to see how I am the one only finding fault with those whom I disagree with.
By the way, I have plenty I disagree with Bill Clinton on, and it seems that President Obama is falling into the same conservative footsteps as Bill did, once he was in office.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
@Swiggle
As long as you don't start teaching the war of Northern aggression...LOL... indeed
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